Report of the Literature Committee.

Your Committee have to report that since the last meeting of the Council a set of articles, dealing with ringing, from the pen of the Rev. T. L. Papillon, Master of the Essex Association, have appeared in The Guardian, and have since been re-published at the office of that paper in pamphlet form at the price of 2d. per copy. This pamphlet was reviewed in “The Bell News” of January 28th, 1905.

Your Committee consider that this is a most valuable publication, and meets the requirement which the Committee was appointed to consider, and the Committee recommend that the various Associations should provide themselves with copies of this pamphlet in order that it may be as widely distributed as possible.

The Bell News and Ringers’ Record May 27, 1905, page 139


The Third Session of the Fifth Council was held in St. Andrew’s Church House, Canterbury, on Whitsun-Tuesday, June 13th, when there were thirty-seven representatives and three hon. members present as given in the official schedule of attendances already published, (see p. 171).

Sir Arthur Heywood, Bart., presided. Letters expressing regret were read from Revs. A. H. Boughey and C. E. Matthews, and from Messrs. J. Carter, F. E. Ward, W. H. Godden, and J. S. Pritchett.

The Hon. Secretary read the minutes of the last meetings which were passed and signed.


The Rev. C. D. P. Davies (Hon. Sec.), submitted the accounts as audited by the Standing Committee, a summary of which was as follows:- Balance for last year £56 8s. 3d., affiliation fees £11 7s. 6d., Sale of Publications £8 0s. 2d., making a total of £75 15s. 11d. The expenditure included Meeting 1904, £2 14s. 6d.; Printing £35 0s. 3d., Postage 13s. 4d., Balance £37 7s. 10d. The following copies of the publications had been sold by Messrs. Bemrose: Preservation of Bells, 27; Reports on Catalogue of Peals and Calls, 17; Glossary, 25; Model Rules for Associations, 30; Model Rules for Companies, 81; Bells, Belfries and Ringers, 7; Collection of Peals, Section 1, 47; Section 2, 87 ; Rules and Decisions of Council, 124. The Hon. Secretary proceeded to explain that the net value of publications in stock amounted to £86 3s. 8½d., which would bring the total assets of the Council up to £130 14s. 2½d. The £8 0s. 2d. for sales was that of the previous year, the cheque not having arrived in time to be included in last year’s accounts and since the making up of the present year’s accounts Messrs. Bemrose and Sons had sent in a cheque for £7 2s. 8d., which would bring the total cash in bank up to £44 10s. 6d. The Hon. Secretary pointed out that the whole of the publications could be obtained at the published price post free, and if those requiring copies would send direct to the publishers it would assist the funds of the Council, as when copies were ordered through local booksellers there was a discount of 25 per cent. allowed them, and so the Council lost money.

The President said it should be borne in mind that although the Balance of £100 in 1903 had been reduced to £44, yet there were Publications to the value of £86 in the publishers hands which would bring the net sum up to over £120. Of course something would have to be written off for those publications which might not be sold. It did not appear that the Collections of Peals were selling as was anticipated. It would be a step in the right direction if representatives could induce more members of the Exercise to take copies of this valuable publication. The Council had to thank those gentlemen who undertook the preparation of the work at the desire of the Council. It was a work which had to be done with great care, and it was most desirable that its sale should be pushed. There were other collections to follow, and it might be difficult to find the money unless a fair sale of those sections already published was secured. The sale of Snowdon’s book on Treble Bob showed how the exercise appreciated a good work, and there could not be any doubt that this collection would be most valuable to the exercise. It should also be borne in mind that the Collection would help to prevent many ridiculous compositions from appearing, as now was the case, in “The Bell News.” It often happened that compositions appeared, and in the course of a week or two some one wrote pointing out that so and so is false, or that the composition is a variation of something which has appeared before. He hoped that much of this sort of thing would be stopped when the whole collection was issued. He did not know of any other art or science in which people were so reckless in rushing into print as in the science of change ringing. A scientist was usually ashamed to bring forward as his own something similar to what another scientist had previously introduced, and he saw no reason why there should not be the same feeling in the science of Change Ringing. Some young men as soon as they could put a few rows of figures together at once published them as a peal, and no doubt think there are unlearned readers of “The Bell News” who will give them credit for what they have done. In passing the accounts he trusted the Council would most heartily thank the Hon. Secretary, for the large amount of work Mr. Davies was doing for the Council. He could assure them that he often feared Mr. Davies would say that the work had increased to such an extent that he could no longer manage it.

The Rev. F. E. Robinson moved the adoption of the accounts, and that the thanks of the Council be tendered to the Hon. Secretary.

The Rev. T. L. Papillon, in seconding, said there could not be but admiration for the clear statement of accounts which had been rendered. As to the words which had been spoken by the President he was afraid those for whom it was intended were not present. He hoped that they would however be able to read what others thought of them and mend their ways.

The resolution having been adopted the Hon. Secretary thanked the Council for their vote of thanks. It was true that there was a certain amount of work which came chiefly during the past month. So long however as he had charge of a country village the Council need not fear his resignation if it chose to elect him.


The President said the two hon. members whose term of office expired were the Rev. E. W. Carpenter, and Mr. T. Lockwood. If these gentlemen were re-elected there would still be the one vacancy which it had been the custom of the Council to reserve. He did not know at present there was any name which it was advisable to add.

On the proposition of Mr. Story, seconded by the Rev. W. W. C. Baker, the Rev. E. W. Carpenter and Mr. Lockwood were both re-elected hon. members.


Mr. Dains, who has charge of the Double Norwich Section of this work, said the copy had been in the hands of the printer some time and a proof of the first sheet only had been returned for correction.

The Hon. Secretary said Mr. Trollope had made an excellent selection of the peals of Bob Major, and the list of Double Norwich which Mr. Dains had in hand had been prepared, but the work was proceeding very slowly through the printer’s hands. As soon as the first section is issued, the second will be proceeded with. He was not able to say definitely, but thought there would be about nine sheets. Under these circumstances it would be seen that that the work at present was but in its infancy as there were the Treble Bob, Surprise, and Stedman Selections to follow. The arrangement was that after the member of the Committee had corrected the proof of his portion of his work that it should then pass through his, the Hon. Secretary’s, hands for final correction. He was now waiting for proof of the first sheet of the third section.

The Rev. H. A. Cockey said it appeared that under the present arrangements it might be some years before the work was complete. When the present section was done would it not be desirable to make some other arrangements by which the work could be proceeded with more promptly.

The President thought this a question best left with the Standing Committee. The funds would not permit the work to go on very rapidly.

The Rev. H. A. Cockey thought if the whole Collection was issued there would be a larger demand.


The President, in reporting upon the condition of rings said he could only repeat what he said last year. The list was still appearing, and upon its conclusion there will be an appendix of omitted towers. Many of the returns were very disappointing because they had not been given with the accuracy which was desired. Next year the Committee would be in a position to present a report, after being called together to decide as to the form in which the information obtained should be given. He thought it would only be necessary to issue a Summary. To repeat the whole would not only be expensive but much of the information would be out of date. There could be no doubt that much valuable information had been got together, and it was satisfactory to find that the condition of rings was better than had been anticipated. Notwithstanding that it was well known that “clocking” was a very dangerous practice there were still a number of towers where it was permitted. Attention would also be drawn to the happily considerable number of towers where it was stated that the Church authorities were willing to do all that was necessary to keep everything in order. He would suggest that if there were any members of the Council who knew of towers of which particulars had not appeared that the name of the representative ringer of each should be sent to him, and that a form for filling up, could be sent in each case, so as to get the particulars into the appendix.

The Rev. W. W. C. Baker asked if corrections could be made as to rings, particulars of which had already appeared. In one case that had come under his notice the bells were said to be in good order but were unringable.

The President said a list was kept and as corrections were received these were noted opposite the particulars of the tower to which they related. All this information would be taken into account when the abstract was prepared. Any such corrections as were referred to by Mr. Baker could be easily dealt with.

The Rev. Maitland Kelly asked if information could be accepted from outsiders or only from ringers connected with the particular towers.

The President said the information had only been taken from those authorised to give it. It had not been accepted on hearsay. He should be prepared to accept information from reliable persons such as members of the Council as to the actual condition of bells.

Mr. A. T. King said it would occupy a considerable time to look through the pages of “The Bell News” to ascertain what towers had not appeared. Could a list of those towers from which no returns had been furnished be given.

The Rev. W. W. C. Baker thought that the Secretaries of Associations who supplied the original list of towers might assist in this matter as most of them would know the names omitted.

The Rev. H. A. Cockey thought the want of information in many cases was due to the indifference of the individual who might have supplied it. He suggested that in cases where the local representatives had not given the information it might be possible to get all that was necessary either through the local representatives of the Council, or through the Association, or Guild Secretary for the district.

The President saw no reason why this should not be done. The signature of one member of the Council would be as reliable as the two signatures upon some of the returns.


Mr. R. A. Daniell said one of the objects for which this Committee was appointed was to get some publication which would give the public some information about ringers and bells in general. He thought that the thanks of the Council were due to Mr. Papillon from whose pen well written articles had appeared in The Guardian which had twice been published in pamphlet form. He thought the ice had been broken, as was shown by the attention that the press had commenced to give to ringing matters. This was clearly illustrated when the Bishop of London gave the address at St. Clement Danes. He thought the Committee had done all it could. He moved the adoption of the report of the Committee which had already appeared.

The Rev. M. Kelly seconded.

Mr. C. E. Borrett said he had not experienced the same difficulty in getting ringing information into the press as some of the Council appeared to have done. His experience was that the press was not only willing to receive information but also to pay for it, provided that it was written in a manner that was interesting to the general reader. This was his experience when the Council met at Norwich, and he wished the Council would come again so far as his pocket was concerned. It was no use writing simply for ringers. Such matter the press would not accept. Anything supplied to the press should be of a racy nature written in the right fashion and for the interest of the general reader.

Mr. A. Hughes said one of the Nottingham journals had gone so far as to give a ringer’s corner.

The President said he fully agreed that the thanks of the Council were due to Mr. Papillon for the excellent articles he had written. He trusted that every Association would make good use of the pamphlet, which gives some very useful information.


The consideration of “Points for Peals” having been deferred so that it might be taken in conjunction with the subject of points for handbell peals which came later in the Agenda, the Rev. H. Law James, after explaining that the Committee were not agreed in the definition of certain terms, read the draft report on the Classification of Methods. This was a very carefully considered document, and was illustrated by diagrams, and expounded with great fullness and clearness by the speaker. The President said that the Report was one of much value, with which great pains and care had evidently been taken, but that it was highly desirable that before adopting it, or even fully discussing it, that it should be printed in “The Bell News.” After Mr. Trollope had spoken, the Hon. Secretary proposed, and Mr. R. S. Story seconded, a resolution to the effect that, while thanking the Committee on Legitimate Methods, the Council defers the discussion of the matter until its next meeting, asking the Committee to publish their draft report in the meanwhile in the columns of “The Bell News” and to include in it any matters that they consider germane to the subject. After some further remarks by Mr. Dains and the President the resolution was carried.


The Rev. F. J. O. Helmore, in moving that an annual grant of £5 5s. 0d., be paid from the Council funds for the preparation of the Peal Analysis, said he had no personal feeling in the matter. To draw up the Analysis must entail some amount of work and this he thought should be paid for.

Mr. J. Cheesman seconded.

Mr. A. B. Bennett said it was necessary for Mr. Attree to have some one to do the work, which he managed by securing the co-operation of Mr. Baker, whose name had been associated with that of Mr. Attree for some years.

Mr. Story asked if some arrangement, could not be made by which the Analysis could appear at different dates without so much delay.

Mr. A. B. Bennett said Mr. Baker had stated that the returns could be completed within a reasonable time.

Mr. R. A. Daniell did not consider that the funds of the Council should be used for the purpose and thought that the Associations should pay for the work if it was to be paid for. He could not see that the Analysis was worth £5 5s. 0d., a year to the Council, but at the same time he did not see why Mr. Baker should do the work for nothing; if anything was paid it should be by the Associations.

Mr. A. T. King supported the views expressed by Mr. Daniell. He was not an admirer of the Analysis, but no doubt there were a number of people who from time to time liked to see it. He did not approve of the Council paying for the work, and thought whatever was paid should come from the Associations, and had no doubt that if steps could be taken to collect from the various Associations there would not be any difficulty in raising the amount; the question however would be the machinery by which the different contributions could be collected. If the Hon. Secretary could make an appeal to the various Associations for 2s. 6d., or 5s., he had no doubt that the amount would be forthcoming.

The Rev. H. Law James did not approve of dragging down the Exercise, which he considered the analysis did.

The President pointed out that the proposed sum was nearly half the annual income of the Council. If the Council commenced payment for work done by ringers in one direction it would have to pay in other directions, among which would first of all be that of the Hon. Secretary, in which case it would be necessary to have a much larger income than the present.

No one voted for the resolution, which was consequently lost.

The Bell News and Ringers’ Record July 1, 1905, pages 196 to 197


The Rev. H. Law James, in moving “That all peals rung in hand, each ringer ringing two bells, should be allowed twice as many points as the same peal would receive if rung in hand single-handed or upon tower bells,” said personally he did not take much interest in the analysis, for as he had already said he considered it was lowering the Exercise. Some of the members of the Council might therefore think it strange that he should move this resolution. He did so to help to raise the standard of ringing and to encourage handbell ringing. It would also be encouraging for ringing a variety of methods, as when a band had rung a peal of Grandsire Triples, they would go on to something else. It would also encourage double-handed ringing without encouraging single-handed ringing. There could be no doubt that a peal rung double-handed was worth double the number of points of a peal rung single-handed.

The President asked if the question had been considered by the Points Committee to whom it had been referred.

The Rev. H. Law James said as he was not a member of the Points Committee he could not say. He had moved the resolution in accordance with the notice that he gave at York last year when he expressed an opinion that the whole question of points should be gone into. He was, however, if desired, willing to leave the matter in the hands of the Committee.

Mr. Story said there was also the question of points for Minor Surprise and Treble Bob Minor with “broken leads” which was referred to the Points Committee at the last meeting of the Council. Could any member of the Committee state when the matter had been before him?

Mr. Dains said, as a member of the Committee, the matter had not come before him.

The President said he was afraid the Committee had overlooked the question of points for Minor referred to them last year, consequently nothing had been done. Mr. Attree’s attention would, however, be called to the matter. Would not Mr. James consent to refer his resolution to the Committee as a recommendation?

The Rev. H. Law James said his resolution was in accordance with the notice that he gave at York.

The President said that the Points Committee had a thorough knowledge of the value of points and that it would be better to leave the question for them to report upon.

The Rev. H. Law James said the Points Committee had to deal with the value of points for Stedman, Double Norwich and other methods. This was a question of points of handbell peals.

Mr. Dains asked who was in charge of the Committee. He had not heard of it for some time.

The President said the Committee had not reported since 1900; in fact they were discharged, but last year were asked to reform themselves. He was afraid there had been some misunderstanding.

Mr. Dains said he was desirous of knowing if more points could not be given for “Duffield” and “Alliance Forward.”

The President said this also would be a question for the Committee, and pointed out that Mr. Law James’s resolution had not yet been seconded.

Mr. Richardson seconded the resolution.

The Rev. T. L. Papillon said he did not claim to be in a position to speak from personal experience upon the matter. On the previous day at the annual meeting of the Essex Association he put the question as to what was the opinion of those interested, and one ringer told him that he considered that if a peal in one of the Surprise Methods was rung double-handed it should be allowed double the points allowed for a peal in the same method on tower bells, but not so with Bob Major; while another, who he considered could speak with greater authority, said a double-handed peal should have double points and a non-conducted one a third more.

Mr. King said, like Mr. Papillon, he did not intend to speak with any experience, but he had the opportunity of asking an eminent handbell ringer who, while not prepared to say what number of points should be given, expressed an opinion the question should receive consideration.

Mr. Daniell considered the Council should do what it could to encourage double-handed ringing and thought the resolution would do so.

The Rev. Maitland Kelly asked what was the present rule. Did double-handed handbell peals receive only the same number of points as a peal upon tower bells?

The President replied in the affirmative.

Mr. C. E. Borrett said a great difficulty which handbell ringers had to meet was securing an umpire, especially in cases where it was necessary to start three or four times. Undoubtedly the strain upon the nerves in ringing a double-handed hand bell peal was far greater than in a peal upon the tower bells.

A member of the Council having remarked that the resolution would raise the question of the value of a single-handed handbell peal,

The President read the resolution adopted last year in which the Council discountenanced single-handed peals.

The Hon. Secretary moved to strike out “in hand single-handed or.”

The Rev. H. Law James said he would accept the amendment.

The President said the resolution would be more in order if it was adopted as a recommendation to the Points Committee, in which case it would not hamper their judgment. The Committee might at the same time be glad of the advice of the Council, and would be in a position to go fully into the whole question and submit a report at the next meeting.

The Rev. H. Law James did not object to this, provided another whole year was not wasted.

The resolution was then amended as follows:- “That it be a recommendation to the Points Committee that all peals rung in hand, each ringer ringing two bells, should be allowed twice as many points as the same peal would receive if rung upon tower bells.”

This was adopted nem. con.

Mr. Story asked who acted as convener of a meeting of the Committee. He remembered that in the case of a committee of which he was a member the late hon. secretary called the committee together.

The President said it appeared that the whole matter had been overlooked since last year. Mr. Attree had hitherto kindly led the work in connection with the Points Committee and that gentleman would be communicated with.


Mr. R. A. Daniell proposed that, having regard to the recent correspondence in “The Bell News,” it is desirable to appoint a committee to submit to next year’s meeting a short descriptive catalogue of the known printed books and manuscripts relating to change ringing not readily accessible to members of Exercise. The resolution was seconded by Rev. T. L. Papillon.

The President reminded the Council that some years ago, on the proposal of Mr. Strange, they had taken this matter in hand, entrusting it to Mr. Strange as a one-man committee, but that after long delay and correspondence, Mr. Strange had finally given this matter up. After further conversation, in which many members joined, the resolution was unanimously carried, the matter being placed in the hands of the Press Committee. On the motion of Mr. J. Griffin, seconded by Rev. G. F. Coleridge, the names of Rev. H. A. Cockey and Mr. Henry Dains were for this purpose added to the Committee.


Mr. Trollope, in moving that Bob Triples and Grandsire Major, not being legitimate methods, are not worthy of being practised and that peals in them should not be booked, said the resolution was the outcome of the report on legitimate methods adopted by the Council two years ago. He should have moved the present resolution at York had he been able to be present. He remembered when the resolution was before the meeting two years ago many spoke very kindly about the report, but he was afraid not many knew what they were speaking about. He did not now ask the Council to say that Grandsire Major and Bob Triples were not legitimate methods; this the Council had already done. Among the arguments to be brought forward would be that the Council has no right to say what ringers should ring and what they should not ring. That was correct. The resolution did not say that they should not ring either Grandsire Major or Bob Triples. But what he did say was that the Council had undertaken to endeavour to raise the standard of ringing, and if the Council thinks these peals should not be rung, let the Council advise ringers not to ring them. If the Council did this he did not believe such peals would be rung. He thought that only one peal of Bob Triples and not one of Grandsire Major had for some time been rung, whereas previously there were several. If the Council adopted this resolution he believed both would die out. Some might no doubt say that the Council had no right to dictate, and it might be as well to leave out the last sentence “and that peals in them should not be booked.” This he would leave with the Council. Another argument was that these methods were necessary for teaching a young company; while a third argument was that Grandsire Major was a very nice method. There were scores of better methods that could be rung; then why trouble to ring either Grandsire Major or Bob Triples? He failed to see the necessity of using either method for teaching purposes, and had no doubt that if the resolution was adopted it would help to raise the standard of ringing.

The President suggested that the words “and that peals in them should not be booked” should be struck out.

Mr. Trollope had no objection if the Council desired this.

Mr. Dains seconded the resolution.

The Hon. Secretary said he gave the resolution his most hearty support; it was what he had aimed at for many years.

The Rev. T. L. Papillon said the Essex Association at its annual meeting had requested its representatives to vote against the resolution. He thought the average ringer who did not look at the question from a scientific point of view would ask, why are not Grandsire Major and Bob Triples legitimate methods? To the average unscientific ringer it would be difficult to give an answer. There were not many peals rung in either method and in some places both methods helped to make a variety.

The Rev. W. W. C. Baker considered the resolution could be summarily dealt with. In teaching a young band it might be one which did not know anything of change ringing. A commencement is made with Plain Bob with a view of ringing Bob Major. Having got Bob Doubles, a start is made with Bob Minor, and it might happen that there were seven men who could ring the front seven bells with another tenor-man and so get on to Bob Triples. It might be a makeshift, but let them ring Bob Triples as soon as proficient to do so, and it would be a stepping-stone to Bob Major. A start should be made in one method and kept to. If this was practised, progress could be made, but to make a start in two or three methods would often result in failure.

The Rev. F. J. O. Helmore proposed an amendment leaving out the last sentence of the resolution. He considered, however, that the ringing of the methods under discussion should be discountenanced as much as possible.

The President said the Council had never taken upon itself to pass such a drastic resolution as the one upon the paper.

The Rev. H. Law James said, when the report upon calls was issued it was laid down that peals such as Grandsire Major and Bob Triples were not peals at all. That was some years ago, and now the Council was discussing if these were legitimate methods.

The President said the Council had not absolutely pledged itself to everything that the report contained. He would recommend the Council to pass the present resolution in a milder form.

The Rev. H. J. Elsee said Grandsire Major was an odd-bell method adapted to even bells and Bob Triples was an even-bell method adapted to odd bells. He seconded the amendment made by Mr. Helmore, being desirous of discountenancing their practice.

Mr. A. T. King said Mr. Trollope had told the Council that ringing of these methods was gradually dying out. If so, why not leave them alone. In many villages one of these methods, especially Bob Triples, might be the only one that the local band could ring, and it did not concern them if what they were ringing was legitimate or not; the band did not stop to inquire about this. As time goes on and we all get so very clever, local bands may become ashamed of themselves and not ring Bob Triples, so it might be as well to emphasise these things from time to time.

The Rev. H. Law James said if the resolution went forth that the Council did not want bands to ring these methods, in time the average Englishman would get to know something about it. He would suggest the amending of the resolution by leaving out Grandsire Major and Bob Triples and putting in that the Council discountenance the ringing of any method not legitimate.

Mr. Trollope said the reason why these methods were dying out was because the question had come before the Council. He asked himself if the Council was to continue to be a reliable guide in the matter. Was it going to say: “If you cannot ring a true peal, ring as true a one as you can.” If the Council set up a high standard an effort to reach it would be made, whereas, if a low standard was set, many would not rise above it. He did not advocate compulsion, but to show what was right practice. The Rev. H. A. Cockey thought there were many country ringers who did not know what was a legitimate method, neither would many of them take the trouble to inquire.

The Rev. W. W. Covey Crump seconded the amendment moved by the Rev. H. Law James.

The President said this would be cutting out the whole essence of the resolution. He thought it would be admitted that they did not all live in the exalted atmosphere breathed by Mr. James. There must be a little sympathy for the less advanced brethren both within and outside the Council. In speaking previously of The Glossary, Mr. James had wisely said that he would leave its definitions of principles for those not so far advanced. The same applied to the resolution as amended.

The amendment proposed by Mr. James having been put to the meeting and lost, and Mr. Helmore’s amendment having been accepted by the original mover and seconder, the resolution as thus amended was put to the meeting as a substantive resolution in the names of Messrs. Trollope and Dains and was carried nem. con.


Mr. Trollope said he had been requested to submit a resolution that Double Norwich Court Bob Caters be accorded the same number of points per peal as the Double Norwich Court Bob Royal. This he did for one of the London companies who was fully qualified to give an opinion. He thought the resolution must commend itself to all and he would leave it in the hands of the Council.

The Hon. Secretary, in seconding, said Double Norwich Court Bob Caters was a continuous Cater method throughout.

Mr. A. B. Bennett asked if the resolution was not a question for the Points Committee.

The President replied in the affirmative.

Mr. Trollope said he was willing to agree to this.

The President said that, as regarded the name, in his opinion the Cater method was not Double Norwich at all.

Mr. Trollope said the method had been got from Double Norwich Court Bob Major by the introduction of a bell in the hunt with the treble.

The Rev. H. Law James said it was a true method for nine bells. He considered a peal was worth about double the number of points of a peal of Grandsire Caters, and not worth as much as a peal of Double Norwich Royal. If given double the number of points of Grandsire Caters it would receive 18, whereas if the resolution was adopted it would get 28. From a practical point of view he thought the former would be satisfactory. He moved accordingly and that the question be referred to the Points Committee.

The President said he had not found any difficulty in teaching a band to ring the Double Norwich Royal and thought Mr. James rated it too high. He was sure it would be best to refer the matter to the Points Committee.

The Rev. H. A. Cockey seconded the amendment, which was adopted as a recommendation to the Points Committee.

The Bell News and Ringers’ Record July 8, 1905, pages 208 to 209, correction July 22, 1905, page 233


The President said there were one or two points which had come under his notice in which it might be desirable to slightly amend the rules. There was no provision in the rules for the introduction of new members. He thought it was desirable that all new members of the Council should be introduced to the chairman, as otherwise new members were not known except through their friends. Another point which it would be well to consider was the number of hon. members. At present the number was limited to 12. An occasion might arise when it might be found difficult to make a place for some one who was not re-elected as a representative, and who it was necessary to have upon the Council. It might therefore be as well to make the number 15 instead of 12. This was a matter which would come before the next meeting.


The President said before the Council rose he should like to take the opportunity on behalf of the Council of thanking the Rev. F. J. O. Helmore for the very excellent arrangements that had been made, and for the hospitality he was offering. He moved a hearty vote of thanks to Mr. Helmore.

The Hon. Secretary in seconding, said Mr. Helmore had greatly assisted in making the meeting a success, by taking a great deal from his (the Hon. Secretary’s) shoulders, for which he was very grateful.

The Rev. F. J. O. Helmore said he desired to thank them for their appreciation of what little he had done. He wished more could have been present, and should have pleasure in seeing as many as possible at the social gathering in the evening.

On the proposition of the Rev. F. E. Robinson, seconded by the Rev. G. F. Coleridge, a hearty vote of thanks was passed to the President.

This concluded the meeting. In the evening most of the members attended a social gathering given by the Rev. F. J. O. Helmore, where excellent singing, both glees and solos, gave great pleasure.


The following Reports of the discussion on the question of a Catalogue of Ringing Literature, and on the presentation of the Report of the Legitimate Methods Committee, have reached us since our last issue. They are here given by way of Appendix, and should be read in connection with the brief resume of each of the subjects given in their proper place in the report of the meeting - that on the Classification of Methods on p. 197, and on Ringing Literature on p. 208.


Mr. R. A. Daniell in proposing this motion said that the proposal was not a novelty, as there had previously been a Committee of one on this subject, which however had produced no result to the Council. The contributions of Mr. Dains, Mr. Pearson and others to “The Bell News” within the last few months had shewn there was in the old books and manuscripts, some of which were very scarce, a good deal of information not readily accessible, and for the want of it composers of methods and peals had produced as original what had long been anticipated; also that Mr. Ellacombe’s lists were in many cases not classified, so that a pamphlet entitled “The Ringers’ True Guide,” which would appear from its title to have something to do with the science, was in reality an address by a dissenting minister; and also that notices in the press in the course of time became almost as inaccessible as their originals, instancing Mr. Jasper Snowdon’s review of Dr. Mason’s Manuscripts, which is only now to be found in a volume of Church Bells somewhere about thirty years ago. Having regard to these facts he thought it was desirable that a short descriptive Catalogue of such works as these which should include references to the notices of them in the ringing press, should be prepared, and he also thought that they would form a valuable addition for the purposes of the Exercise to Mr. Papillon’s pamphlet.

The Rev. T. L. Papillon seconded.

The President said on the agenda for the year 1892 there was an item bearing upon the question, and at the meeting in the same year a resolution was adopted that it was expedient that some such list should be published, after which the matter was referred to Mr. Strange, who undertook to prepare the list. From time to time Mr. Strange reported upon the work which he had in hand up to 1898, when he appeared to have given it up. Did any one know at the present time where Mr. Strange was?

Mr. King said he understood Mr. Strange was at South Kensington.

Mr. Pitstow said Mr. Strange informed him that he was too busy to get on with the work.

Mr. King said the result of Mr. Strange’s labours had to some extent appeared in “The Bell News,” but this was not what Mr. Daniell wanted. No doubt the idea was a good one, if you could get people to give the necessary time to the work.

The President asked if Mr. Daniell would be prepared to assist; if so, would he suggest a small Committee.

Mr. Daniell said he should be prepared to make a start with the work, provided the Council appointed him upon the Committee.

Mr. Dains said in Annable’s note-book there were scores of both good and indifferent methods. He did not know if it was Mr. Daniell’s idea that these should all be published.

The President said it was the title of the book and an abstract of its contents that was wanted.

Mr. Daniell: So that the Exercise can know what is in them.

The President suggested that the Rev. H. A. Cockey should be added to the Press Committee, and the work left in the hands of that Committee.

On the motion of Mr. Griffin, seconded by the Rev. G. F. Coleridge, Mr. H. Dains and the Rev. H. A. Cockey were added for this purpose to the Press Committee.

The Rev. H. J. Elsee suggested that particulars should be given as to where those books which were rare could be seen.

The President suggested that if the price of any rare work was known, it would be useful as a guide to its value. Possibly some member of the Committee could see Mr. Strange and ascertain if he would present the Council with his work as far as completed.

Mr. Daniell said whatever might have been done would have to be revised. Nothing could be taken for granted. Only reference need be made to those works from which extracts had appeared in “The Bell News.”


The Rev. H. Law James said last year his brother was added to the Legitimate Methods Committee. Soon afterwards his brother sent a letter to Mr. Dains written some years ago upon the subject, and the Committee had been at work upon the report for some time. There were certain definitions with which the whole of the Committee did not agree.

The President said it was customary at the commencement of a report to give any definition required of the terms used therein, so that the reader had the meanings before him whenever necessary.

The Rev. H. Law James said the Committee did not agree.

The Rev. F. E. Robinson: “Take the opinion of the majority.”

The President said Mr. Law James had better give his own definition.

The Rev. H. Law James said if he sent the report out it came back to him, some of the Committee not agreeing. In one instance it was five to one, but there was a wider difference among the Committee upon the definition of certain words. It would therefore be for the Council to put the whole matter right. Mr. James then proceeded to read an exhaustive report illustrating the same by carefully-prepared diagrams showing leads of Cambridge, Double Court and Treble Bob, and dealing with consecutive place-making.

The President said he was sure every member of the Council was gratified with the excellent report which Mr. James had prepared. The Council were however in this difficulty, the report had not been published beforehand in “The Bell News,” and he feared it was impossible for the Council to grasp the full meaning till it was in print; he would therefore suggest that the report should be again revised by the Committee, after which it should appear in “The Bell News.” This would give all an opportunity of going thoroughly into the whole question. To do so that day, be thought, was impossible, as the Council ought not to come to any definite conclusion without careful study of the entire report.

The Rev. H. Law James said what was wanted was for the Exercise to interest themselves in these questions in face of what had been said and done. Methods were still rung which should not be rung; not that the report would make much difference to those who did not understand it.

Mr. Trollope said he thought the majority of the Committee would be in favour of adjourning the consideration of the report, as there were several points which might be amended. He considered the Council should have the opportunity of reading the report, and comparing the same with the Glossary.

Mr. Dains said the report could without much delay be published - say in course of a few weeks. This would give everybody interested an opportunity to go fully into the matter; with the reports might be published a list of legitimate methods.

The Rev. H. Law James said some ringers still continued ringing methods that were not legitimate. If the Council could publish such a list as suggested by Mr. Dains, some ringers might be found who would take up the ringing of methods that were worth ringing. He thought the list should be arranged according to classification.

Hon. Secretary moved the resolution given in full on p. 197.

Mr. Story seconded.

The President said that this was one of the most important works that the Council could take up. He hoped that there would be a clear understanding, and that the whole question would be most carefully considered before any decision was arrived at. Mr. James had referred to the Glossary. It should be remembered that the late Hon. Secretary was to a large extent responsible for what appeared in the Glossary, the whole of which Mr. James did not appear to agree with. After all it was possible for two persons to look at the same thing from two different points of view. As time went on it might be necessary for the Council to modify its decisions upon certain points. He would urge upon all the importance of making a careful study of the report when it appeared, and so be prepared to deal with the whole question at the next meeting.

The Rev. H. Law James said two years ago at the meeting in London, the Report upon legitimate methods was adopted, which ruled out the whole of the appendix of the Glossary. There were many things which appeared legitimate that were not so under the report which was adopted by the Council. It was the appendix to the Glossary that wanted removing, where London Surprise was termed London Marvel. If it was anything it was London Surprise.

Mr. Griffin said: “Could not those who had to do with the Glossary that were living, consider their definitions, and Mr. James put his as far as possible in accordance with them?”

The President said it was possible that Mr. James might bring forth from his fertile brain ideas which might when put before the Council bring about such results as had not been anticipated, and so cause the Council to change its views. The Glossary was a very valuable work for those who did not desire to go deeper into the science. But he trusted the Committee would continue their work for the benefit of the Exercise, and especially for the advanced section.

The Rev. H. Law James said he agreed that the Glossary was a valuable work, but it was the classification with which he did not agree.

The resolution was adopted.

The Bell News and Ringers’ Record July 22, 1905, pages 232 to 233

Valid HTML 4.01 Transitional